左边是大卫·雷默，右边是布伦达·雷默
他们是同一个人。童年时他遭遇了一场失败的包皮手术，因此在一名医生的建议下，家人决定对他进行阉割并将他当作女孩抚养。他在15岁时（1980年）开始重新以男孩身份生活。
评论 (140)
NiceTrySuckaz2,579 赞2025/8/20
I have... so many questions. How do you go from "Alright let's begin the circumcision" to "your best option at this point is to take off everything and raise him as a girl"? Was it one of those situations where you're getting a haircut, and they cut one side too short and so they go to even it out, but now the other side is too short, so they they try to even it out, and so on, until they end up just cutting your head off to hide their mistake?
我有……太多问题了。到底是怎么从“行，咱们开始割包皮吧”这种对话，演变成“事已至此，你最好的选择就是把他全身脱光，当成女孩来养”的？这难道就像去理发店剪头，一边剪短了为了修齐又去剪另一边，结果两边都短了，最后为了掩盖错误干脆把人头都给削了那种情况吗？
Alean921,226 赞2025/8/21
Because they were identical twin boys, it was seen as THE perfect case study for the nature vs nurture debates. The history of medicine is filled with the most horrific experiments and studies sadly.
因为他们是同卵双胞胎，这在当时被视为“先天与后天”争论中“最完美”的案例研究。可惜医学史上充斥着这类极其骇人的实验和研究。
EmrysPhoenix416 赞2025/8/19
The worst part is the doctor kept publishing studies about how great it was working, even though David was miserable and had behavioral issues due to being forced to live as the wrong gender. He ended up killing himself as an adult due to all of the trauma. The doctor's research helped convince others to do gender reassignment for penis deformities/injuries to other kids as well
最烂的是，那个医生一直在发表论文说治疗效果有多好，可事实是 David 过得生不如死，因为被迫以错误的性别生活而出现了各种行为问题。他成年后因为这些创伤自杀了。那个医生的研究还误导了其他人，导致更多生殖器畸形或受伤的孩子被迫接受了性别重置手术。
fritterkitter245 赞2025/8/21
I remember reading about this case in a college psychology class in the 80s. It was framed as "look, they just raised the kid as a girl and he was totally fine with it." Then finding out the real story years later.
我记得 80 年代上大学心理学课时读到过这个案子。当时的说法是：“瞧，只要把孩子当女孩养，他完全能适应。”后来过了好多年才知道真相。
MaddogRunner116 赞2025/8/21
Oh wow, I read about it in college (2010s) as a huge miss-step in the field. Very tragic, and I’m glad they’re not painting it in a positive light anymore.
哇塞，我大学（2010 年代）读到这事的时候，它已经被视为领域内一次巨大的翻车事故了。非常悲剧，我很高兴现在他们不再把这事美化了。
figure888878 赞2025/8/21
Apparently there are a lot of older professors even in the medical field that teach outdated information. There was a study as recently as 2016 where they found that 40% of first and second year medical students held the belief that black people’s skin is thicker than white people’s skin among other misinformed ideas like black people having a higher pain tolerance.
显然，即便是在医学领域，也有很多老教授在传授过时的信息。2016 年的一项研究发现，40% 的医学院一二年级学生竟然认为黑人的皮肤比白人厚，此外还有像“黑人痛阈更高”之类的错误认知。
Mimosa_usagi67 赞2025/8/20
Yes just how they still teach that the cervix doesn't feel pain despite that not being true.
没错，就像他们现在还在教说宫颈没有痛觉，但这根本不是事实。
Ok_Rush_815961 赞2025/8/20
Yep, I was in med school going “uhhhhh….idk about that” my mentor who was in her 60s said when she was in med school they taught med students the ENTIRE VAGINA had no nerve endings so you could be as rough as you wanted during Pap smears 😭
对啊，我在医学院上课时就想说：“呃……这我不确定吧”。我那 60 多岁的导师说，她当年上医学院时，老师教导他们整个阴道都没有神经末梢，所以做宫颈涂片检查时想多粗鲁就多粗鲁😭
Throwawayyy-755 赞2025/8/19
Not to mention that in most states, they’re trained to conduct vaginal exams by doing them on unconscious women who are there for surgery. Some hospitals will literally line up students and have them practice, one after the other. Teaches them nothing about how to do it on a conscious person who can feel! The hospitals say that they “consented” to it because they signed paperwork approving the involvement of students.
更别提在大多数州，医学生受到的训练就是直接在做手术的无意识女性身上练习妇科检查。有些医院甚至会排起队，让学生一个接一个地练。这根本没法教他们怎么对待一个有感觉的清醒病人！医院却说病人既然签了同意学生参与诊疗的文件，就代表她们“同意”了。
lrbsto40 赞2025/8/20
Sorry what the fuck???? Edit: anyone in WA state we have a law specifically forbidding this practice as of 2020
对不起，这他妈是什么鬼？？？？
tiramisutra33 赞2025/8/21
Yes, and the excuse is “how else will they learn?” Well, Sweden solved this, back in the 80s, when they began recruiting volunteer women who would come in after work and let med students practice on them. They got paid of course. That way you had consenting, often olde women counseling the students as to what worked and what didn’t. I’m guessing this wouldn’t be acceptable in the US as it puts the “patient” in a power position relative to the med student, which goes against the power dynamic between doctors and patients in the US.
对啊，他们的借口就是“不然他们怎么学得会？”
瑞典早在 80 年代就解决了这个问题，当时他们开始招募女性志愿者，这些女性下班后会过来让医学生在她们身上练习。当然，她们是有报酬的。通过这种方式，这些通常阅历丰富、年长的女性在学生练习时会提供指导，告诉他们哪些操作可行，哪些不行。
我猜这在美国行不通，因为这会让“病人”相对于医学生处于某种主导地位，而这违背了美国医生与病人之间那种权力不对等的模式。
amgw40220 赞2025/8/20
As recently as 2014, there was a nursing school textbook being used that said Black people have a higher tolerance for pain, so need less pain meds, and it also said that Black people prefer spiritually influenced analgesics. When one of my LVN’s was going to school to be an RN, she told me about it, because she wanted to ask me if it was true. I was in utter disbelief until she brought the textbook and showed it to me.
直到 2014 年，还有护理学院在使用一本教科书，上面写着黑人对疼痛的耐受力更高，所以需要的止痛药更少，而且还说黑人更喜欢受宗教信仰影响的止痛方法。
当我的一名执照职业护士（LVN）在进修注册护士（RN）课程时，她跟我提到了这件事，因为她想问问我是不是真的。我当时简直不敢相信，直到她把那本教材带来给我看。
samebatchannel35 赞2025/8/21
Yeah, I read about it in a sociology class in 1988. At the time, they said the kid was okay. Years later, I heard that was not the case. That poor kid
对，我1988年上社会学课的时候读到过这事。当时书里说那孩子挺好的，结果多年后我才听说根本不是那么回事。那孩子真可怜。
QaraKha25 赞2025/8/19
Yup. Unfortunately many of the people who were still convinced he was okay are still doing their thing. It's also what was used as the basis to deny trans healthcare unless trans women went all-in on hyperfeminization, including but not limited to providing proof that they were attracted to men, living as women for years and being "pretty enough" to transition. Scattered reports of trans women being forced to sleep with their doctors for access to care, and the like. It's pretty bad.
没错。不幸的是，很多坚信他当时“没问题”的人现在还在那一套行事呢。这套逻辑后来还成了拒绝给跨性别者提供医疗服务的借口，除非跨性别女性完全屈从于“过度女性化”标准——包括但不限于证明自己喜欢男人、以女性身份生活多年、并且要“足够漂亮”才能获准变性。
IDKmanSpamIG19 赞2025/8/19
Which is ironic because his case is actually a perfect case study for how you can’t force someone to identify as what YOU want them to be. They have their identity and that’s their identity, regardless of what you force upon them. His development of dysphoria and inability to live with dysphoria and the effects it’s had on him due to lack of treatment, is a direct parallel to transgender people. It’s a very pro-trans result.
说来讽刺，他的案例恰恰是一个完美的负面教材：你根本没法强迫别人去认同你想要他们成为的样子。人家的自我认同就是人家的，无论你强加什么都没用。他后来产生的性别焦虑，以及因缺乏治疗而无法排解这种焦虑所带来的后果，恰恰和跨性别者的经历形成了直接对照。这结果反而很支持跨性别者。
Princess590353 赞2025/8/20
It wasn’t just that he was forced to live as the wrong gender, it was that *his psychiatrist was sexually abusing him* to “better socialize as a woman” or some other bullshit. Even worse, he had his twin brother participating.
不仅仅是他被迫以错误的性别生活，最离谱的是他的心理医生竟然对他进行性虐待，还美其名曰是为了让他“更好地适应女性角色”，简直是一派胡言。更糟的是，他还拉上了他的双胞胎兄弟一起。
jennoween24 赞2025/8/20
*the psychiatrist was sexually abusing both of these children.
*那个心理医生对这两个孩子都进行了性虐待。
ariankhneferet15 赞2025/8/21
Just a point of clarification - he was being abused by a psychologist, not a psychiatrist. This man was not a medical doctor.
澄清一下——虐待他的是心理学家，不是精神科医生。那家伙根本没有医学博士学位。
theevilyouknow171 赞2025/8/19
Saying he killed himself due to the trauma is an oversimplification. His twin brother had also just died, he had been fired, lost his life savings, and his wife left him. The dude literally had just about everything go wrong that possibly could on top of the childhood trauma he already carried.
说他是因为童年创伤自杀的，太简单粗暴了。他的双胞胎兄弟当时刚去世，他刚被炒了鱿鱼，攒了一辈子的积蓄全没了，老婆还跟他离了婚。除了他身上背负的童年阴影，这哥们儿当时简直是遭遇了人生中能发生的所有倒霉事。
[已删除]30 赞2025/8/20
Oh geez I just got done commenting how it might have been the sexual abuse catching up to him but damn, he really just got fucked over endlessly :/
天哪，我刚写完评论说可能是性虐待导致的后遗症，结果……操，这家伙是真的被生活反复蹂躏到死啊 :/
Sugacookiemonsta30 赞2025/8/20
His brother killed himself too. Horrible
他的兄弟也自杀了。可怕
AlarmingAffect020 赞2025/8/19
Fuck that's a *Killing Joke* tier sequence of terrible misfortune, like worthy of a Beaudelaire son holy shit.
他妈的，这是一个“致命笑话”级别的可怕不幸序列，就像值得博德莱尔儿子天哪。
Alean9236 赞2025/8/20
Yes I forgot to add that, he framed it as a success “why would parents have trusted that quack” because he wasn’t ever seen as one 🫠
是的，我忘了补充一点，他将其描述为成功“为什么父母会相信那个庸医”，因为他从来没有被视为一个人🫠
OkMathematician343923 赞2025/8/20
As an intersex person, I hope there is a hell so John Money burns in it for eternity.
作为一个双性人，我希望有一个地狱，让约翰·莫尼在里面永远燃烧。
A_Miss_Amiss27 赞2025/8/19
Yes, this tragic experiment upon David is what people use to justify mutilating intersex children (myself included). What no one talks about is how David later committed suicide, and how many physical and mental health problems intersex people (again, myself included) experience from it for the rest of out lives.
是的，人们用大卫身上的这个悲惨实验来为残害双性儿童（包括我自己）辩护。没有人谈论的是大卫后来是如何自杀的，以及双性人（同样包括我自己）在余生中经历了多少身心健康问题。
[已删除]16 赞2025/8/21
>He ended up killing himself as an adult due to all of the trauma. I'm sure the genital mutilation didn't help but he made it to age 38 and was married so once he was no longer force feminized things must have improved significantly for a while. I think the intense sexual abuse he was enduring from age 6 to 14 is probably what eventually caught up to him sadly Edit: nope scroll down, some other guy explained it better. He killed himself after losing everything in life. That's fucking awful. He managed to overcome sexual abuse and genital mutilation, and still lost it all. Fucking devastating....
>由于所有的创伤，他最终在成年后自杀了。 我确信切割生殖器并没有什么帮助，但他活到了 38 岁并结婚了，所以一旦他不再被迫女性化，情况一定会在一段时间内得到显着改善。我认为他从 6 岁到 14 岁期间遭受的强烈性虐待可能最终让他感到悲伤 编辑：不向下滚动，其他人解释得更好。他在失去了生活中的一切后自杀了。这太他妈可怕了。他设法克服了性虐待和生殖器切割的痛苦，但仍然失去了一切。真他妈的毁灭性……
catsandcoconuts511 赞2025/8/19
there’s an episode of law and order svu about this (Identity - s6 ep 12) at the end one of them >!kills the psychiatrist who molested them!< but since they’re identical twins and have the same dna, the cops couldn’t figure out who did it so no one was charged.
《法律与秩序 svu》有一集是关于这个的（《身份》-第 6 集第 12 集） 最后，其中一个>！杀死了猥亵他们的精神科医生！<但由于他们是同卵双胞胎并且具有相同的DNA，警察无法弄清楚是谁干的，所以没有人受到指控。
triclops6171 赞2025/8/19
Is this the one where they touch hands across the mirror that separated the rooms they were in?
这是他们隔着房间的镜子触摸双手的地方吗？
catsandcoconuts131 赞2025/8/21
yep!!! fun fact, they were played by one person.
是的！！！ 有趣的是，它们是由一个人玩的。
triclops641 赞2025/8/19
You just gave some context to a core memory of mine that's pretty cool thanks!
你刚刚为我的核心记忆提供了一些背景，这非常酷，谢谢！
Viracochina29 赞2025/8/19
Can I subscribe to more Law & Order: SUV fun facts?
请问还有更多《法律与秩序：特殊受害者》的冷知识可以订阅吗？
catsandcoconuts17 赞2025/8/19
we’re full of em over at !!!
我们 那边多的是！！！
morphias1008143 赞2025/8/20
As a young trans kid who didn't know what transness was and was also molested before I could form/retain memories, this episode stuck with me for a long time. I often forget about it until I see this post circulate again. I do not wish gender dysphoria on anyone, let alone through medical malpractice. Hope he lived a happy life as best he could afterward. He certainly looks much happier in his teen years here. Or maybe I'm projecting. Who knows.
作为一个小时候不知道什么是跨性别，又在还没记事起就遭受过猥亵的跨性别小孩，这一集真的在我心里留下了很深的阴影。每次看到这个帖子在网上转，我才又会想起这事儿。我绝不希望任何人经历性别焦虑，更别提这种因为医疗事故导致的。希望他在那之后能尽可能过上幸福的生活吧。在这张照片里，他十几岁的时候看起来确实开心多了。或者可能是我投射了太多个人感情。谁知道呢。
catsandcoconuts43 赞2025/8/21
you’re not projecting. youre doing great ❤️ but also - https://www.reddit.com/r/RareHistoricalPhotos/s/4zi9arCW7m 💔
你没在投射什么负面情绪，你做得已经很棒了 ❤️
另外还有这个——https://www.reddit.com/r/RareHistoricalPhotos/s/4zi9arCW7m 💔
morphias100832 赞2025/8/21
Damn. Rest easy 😭
The banality of evil. Hurts my heart people can treat kids this way with no/minimal remorse.
该死。愿你安息 😭
平庸之恶啊。想到人们竟然能毫无愧疚或仅存一点点悔意地这样对待孩子，我心都碎了。
bondagepixie18 赞2025/8/20
If its any consolation at all, I think you are right and he was much happier after he got to live his truth. He lived about 20 more years after transitioning, and only passed on after his twin was already gone. The end of David's life was bleak, but thats not all there is to a person. He gave us 20 years of his true self, and if nothing else, we can be grateful for those years.
如果能让你稍微好受点的话，我觉得你是对的，他在能活出自我之后确实开心多了。他变性之后又活了大概 20 年，而且是在他双胞胎哥哥去世之后才离世的。
Dan-D-Lyon69 赞2025/8/20
I get why a completely unethical crackpot doctor would want to perform this experiment, but I have no fucking idea how he managed to convince the parents to go along with it.
我明白为什么那种完全丧尽天良的庸医会想做这个实验，但我他妈完全搞不懂他是怎么说服受害者父母同意的。
Alean9259 赞2025/8/21
His penis was severely damaged and pretty much completely removed. We have to remember that there was very little understanding on sexual and gender identity at that time, all it took was the doctor to say “look he has no penis he will not be able to develop as a normal adult male, it is in his best interest to raise him as female.” I don’t fault their parents for agreeing to it, as for the abuse that happened during their “sessions” it’s been a while so I don’t remember if the parents were aware of the details (if they knew that’s where I say fuck you to them)
他的阴茎当时严重受损，几乎被完全切除了。我们要记得，那时候人们对性别认同知之甚少，医生只需要说一句：“看，他已经没阴茎了，作为男性他将来没法正常发育，为了他好，把他当女孩养吧。”我不怪他父母同意，至于后来那些“治疗”过程中的虐待，隔得太久我不记得父母是否知情了（如果他们知情，那我只能对他们说句去你妈的）。
poolbitch122 赞2025/8/19
The parents were also (I promise this isn’t slander or shade or anything but fact) fairly sheltered and raised rurally. It was 1960’s Canada. They probably put all of their faith in the doctors recommendation.
他父母也（我保证这不是诽谤或者阴阳怪气，而是事实）相当闭塞，是在农村长大的。那时候是 1960 年代的加拿大。他们大概对医生的建议深信不疑。
Legitimate-Sea-757620 赞2025/8/20
The mum was absolutely desperate for everything to work out perfectly for her baby. She took the medical advice, she was driving him far to the therapist for sessions every month and she was hyper-focused on identifying ways that the plan “was working” - like she would report to the therapist when David did anything feminine (like “being tidy”) as though it was proof of the “success”. I kind of get it that if something horrible happens, especially medically with your kid, one way of coping would be to convince yourself that everything is okay now. Obviously this was not in David’s best interest though as it meant she didn’t think deeper about the struggles that he was having.
他妈当时真是急疯了，一心只想让孩子一切顺利。她完全听信了医生的建议，每个月不辞辛苦带他跑长途去看心理医生，还过度执着于寻找那个计划“奏效”的证据——比如当大卫做出一点点女性化的行为（比如“爱整洁”）时，她就会向医生汇报，仿佛这就是计划“成功”的铁证。
Huntressthewizard16 赞2025/8/19
It's also a really good argument about how Gender Dysphorua works.
这对性别焦虑症（Gender Dysphoria）的运作机制也是一个非常好的论点。
Ok_Shoe_432580 赞2025/8/21
So i studied this kid a bit back in college as his story is pretty well documented thanks to his doctor. I may be forgetting/mixing some details, but the jist of it is that they were using an electric tool to circumcise him and I believe it ended up catching his penis on fire due to too much medical alcohol put on him. The end result was he lost his whole penis. Doctor then suggested well he won't ever live a normal life as a boy and convinced parents their only option was to do gender reassignment. Pretty sure they removed the bobs with the bit as well at that point. Doctor then used this kid as a "perfect example" to demonstrate gender is entirely a social construct despite multiple complaints from the parents that he wanted to play with boys, play with boy toys and so on and so forth. His only recommendation was to keep treating the kid as a girl and she will eventually prefer dolls and girly things.
以前上大学的时候我研究过这个孩子，多亏了他的医生，他的故事被记录得相当详细。
细节我可能记混了或者忘了，但大概情况是他们当时用电击器械给他做割礼，结果因为用了过多的医用酒精，导致他的阴茎着火了。最终导致他失去了整个阴茎。
医生随后表示他不可能像个正常的男孩那样生活，并说服父母称他们唯一的选择就是进行性别重置。我记得那时候他们连睾丸也一并切除了。后来这位医生就把这孩子当作“完美样本”，用来证明性别完全是一个社会建构，尽管家长多次投诉说这孩子想和男孩一起玩、想玩男孩子的玩具等等。医生唯一的建议就是继续把他当成女孩养，说她最终会开始喜欢洋娃娃和女孩子气的东西。
Dan-D-Lyon54 赞2025/8/20
Don't forget that this "experiment" ended with both David and his brother eventually taking their own lives
别忘了这个“实验”最后的结局是，大卫（David）和他兄弟最后都自杀了。
Own-Salad-906719 赞2025/8/21
The experiment almost definitely was just an excuse for money to graphically sexually abuse the children in his attempt to main stream his ideals.
这场实验根本就是个幌子，那医生就是为了搞钱，想借机在大众面前强推他的理论，从而对孩子们进行惨无人道的性虐待。
[已删除]534 赞2025/8/21
Probably more like, "these twin boys were born and I want to run an experiment on one of them to compare their development but any reasonable ethics board as well as the parents probably won't let me force feminize a healthy baby boy so I'll just call it a botched circumcision." He continuously followed up with the family until the child threatened to kill himself because he didn't want to go back to the doctor and then the child eventually learned everything and started living as a boy. Also, the experience was to prove that gender is related to your upbringing hence why it was important they were twins but clearly that theory failed. Also, there was child sexual abuse involved IIRC. That's a big important detail.
更像是这样：“这对双胞胎刚出生，我想拿其中一个做发育对比实验，但任何正常的伦理委员会和家长肯定都不会让我去强行把一个健康的男婴女性化，所以我干脆就说成是手术失误吧。”他一直缠着这家人，直到孩子因为不想再去见那个医生而威胁要自杀，后来孩子知道了真相，开始重新以男性身份生活。
radmax1997160 赞2025/8/20
The doctor who ran the experiment and the one who performed the circumcision were not the same person. The botched circumcision was done in Canada where the family was from.
做实验的医生和做环切手术的医生不是同一个人。那次手术失误发生在他们全家所在的加拿大。
[已删除]116 赞2025/8/20
Oh, huh, I've been reciting this story wrong for a while then lol - the botched circumcision was real but I feel like the "there's absolutely nothing we can do but turn it into a vagina" part is what's bullshit still. Looks like the parents went from Canada to John Hopkins to meet with a doctor (another detail I got wrong: he's not even a fucking physician?? He was a psychologist, I figured he was a family medicine doctor researching intersex people lol) because they were worried about psychological distress due to the sexual function issues as he got older, not to get his penis fixed. The doc pushed them to consider sex reassignment surgery, which was performed at John Hopkins, and then he ran the experiment afterwards. Instead of trying to restore the phallus or simply let the kid live without a penis, they created a neo-vagina and in my opinion that just sounds like this doc saw twin children walk into his office and he got a big research boner over the possibilities. Twin studies are a huge deal in the medical field and the psychologist was already doing a lot of research on intersex people. So I'm sure he fed them a bunch of bullshit about how the kid would be miserable without a penis.
哦哈，看来我这故事一直讲错了，笑死。那次手术失误确实是真的，但我依然觉得“除了切了做成阴道外别无他法”纯属扯淡。看起来这家人是从加拿大专门跑到约翰·霍普金斯去找那个医生的（我又搞错了一个细节：他妈的这人根本就不是医生？？他是个心理学家，我还以为是研究双性人的家庭医生呢，笑死）。他们当时是担心孩子长大后性功能障碍会导致心理创伤，而不是为了去修复丁丁。那个医生怂恿他们考虑性别重置手术，随后就在约翰·霍普金斯给做了，接着他就开始跑这个实验了。他没有尝试去重建阴茎，或者干脆让孩子没丁丁地生活，而是造了个假阴道。我觉得这家伙纯粹就是看双胞胎送上门，为了研究可能性兴奋得不行（got a big research boner）。双胞胎研究在医学界分量极重，而那个心理学家当时正好在搞双性人研究。所以我敢肯定，他当时肯定给那家人灌了一肚子迷魂汤，骗他们说孩子没丁丁这辈子就毁了。
radmax199759 赞2025/8/21
Oh I totally agree with you. From the moment they decided to go full vaginoplasty, things were fucked. Deciding to raise a male child as female because a doctor said so is so inconceivable to me. Even as parents looking to do the best thing for your child, it seems completely irrational to think that it would be possible to do what Money convinced them would be possible to do. But medical coercion is probably as old as the practice of medicine itself. I think you’re right, Money saw the twins as a research opportunity and falsified results in order to prove his hypotheses. Terrifying and sad.
我太赞同你了。从他们决定做全套阴道成形术的那一刻起，一切就全完了。仅仅因为医生的一句话，就决定把一个男孩子当女孩养，这在我看来简直不可理喻。即使是作为一心想为孩子好的父母，认为Money（医生名）说的那些事儿能实现，也完全是丧失理智。但医疗胁迫这破事儿大概和医学本身一样古老。我想你说得对，Money把这对双胞胎看作科研机会，为了证明自己的假说伪造了结果。真是又恐怖又悲哀。
that_baddest_dude29 赞2025/8/20
I think this sort of thing happens all the time with intersex people.
我觉得这种事在双性人身上没少发生。
alliewya25 赞2025/8/19
It was this case that lead to this approach being adopted as standard. It wasn't reported the he returned to his birth gender so for decades they had a twin study that reported that if you socialised a child as a gender, they would adjust and grow to be happy in it even though the opposite was true. And all the research conducted afterward to overturn this case wasn't taken seriously because of how strong a twin study can be.
正是这个案例导致这种方法被定为行业标准。由于当时没人报道他后来恢复了生理性别，所以几十年来，他们一直拿这项双胞胎研究作为“铁证”——只要你按某个性别去社会化教养孩子，他们就会适应并在其中快乐成长——即便事实完全相反。
frustratedfren29 赞2025/8/20
It does. I had to do vaginal dilation as a young child after being born with ambiguous genitalia and was operated on to "fix" it. It was traumatic and painful, and I don't even want to have the kind of sex they assumed I'd want, so it was worthless. I never needed fixing.
确实如此。我小时候出生时性征模糊，为了所谓的“矫正”做了手术，之后还得接受阴道扩张治疗。那段经历简直是心理创伤，而且痛苦不堪。更别提他们自作主张给我定的性取向根本不是我想要的，这简直毫无意义。我根本不需要什么“矫正”。
[已删除]25 赞2025/8/20
It does, and he was researching intersex people so I think his goal was to say, "See, we can just assign them all to be female because a vagina is easier to replicate than a penis! And then they'll all be happy!" But regardless of how poorly his research went, for some reason doctors still kept doing... Exactly that, and giving babies sex reassignment surgery without knowing first what gender they'd identify as.
确实，而且他当时就是在研究双性人，所以我感觉他的目的就是为了说：“你看，我们完全可以把他们全定性为女性，因为做个阴道比做个阴茎容易多了！然后他们就都会幸福了！”
sick_lids24 赞2025/8/20
The botched circumcision was also experimental I think the Dr was trying use a new method of literally burning the foreskin off? I believe that the psychologist also sought this family out to convince them to go ahead with this as he was a strong believer that sexual identity was solely social constructed and had absolutely nothing to do with biology. He was overzealous and predatory. There’s a chapter about the story and what ended up happening to both boys in the book The Icepick Surgeon.
那次失败的割礼我觉得也是场实验。那个医生是不是想用什么新方法，直接把包皮给烧掉？我觉得那个心理学家当时也是刻意去找那家人的，试图说服他们照做，因为他坚信性别认同完全是社会建构的，跟生理构造一点关系都没有。他简直是狂热又阴险。书《冰锥外科医生》（The Icepick Surgeon）里有一章专门讲了这个故事，以及后来那对双胞胎兄弟身上发生了什么。
Niawka155 赞2025/8/20
This theory and this horrible experiment should be brought up when people say the LGBT community is trying to "turn children trans" or that seeing two gay guys married will make children gay.
每当有人说LGBT群体想“把孩子变跨性别”，或者说看到两个男同性恋结婚会把孩子带弯时，就该把这个理论和这个恶心的实验甩到他们脸上。
hav0k082962 赞2025/8/21
Which is weird because this kind of just proves you are born with the ability to handle being one gender and it causes great physical discomfort to be physically the wrong one, which we can easily infer in trans people means they probably just have the brain wiring for the opposite sex rather than their birth one. Neuroscience is very iffy and hard to conclude anything about but this is a pretty solid indicator.
这说起来挺讽刺的，因为这事儿恰恰证明了一个人天生就有认同特定性别的能力，如果身体构造对不上，会引起巨大的生理不适。我们很容易推导出，跨性别者之所以是跨性别，很可能就是因为他们的脑部构造连接方式偏向于另一种性别，而不是出生时的性别。神经科学的研究确实挺玄乎、很难下定论，但这个案例算是一个非常有力的指标了。
[已删除]26 赞2025/8/20
>Neuroscience is very iffy and hard to conclude anything about but this is a pretty solid indicator. There is a biological indicator of gender, although it's contested. Basically women have more neurons in a specific brain region then men. There is a strong correlation of trans women having more of such neurons than men, both cis and trans. It's very convincingly a biological marker of neuro gender in my opinion but yeah there's a lot of factors that make it debated still. But I worship Robert Sapolsky and he seems to believe the theory so that's good enough for me. I always wondered if nonbinary people have a number of neurons somewhere in the middle
>神经科学领域很多东西都模棱两可，很难下什么定论，但这算是个挺靠谱的指标。
性别确实有生物学指标，虽然目前还有争议。简单来说，女性在某个特定的脑区神经元数量比男性多。跨性别女性的该脑区神经元数量比顺性别男性要多，这一点关联性很强（顺性别女性和跨性别女性在这方面相似）。在我看来，这非常有说服力地证明了神经学性别存在生物标记，但确实还有很多因素导致这一理论至今仍有争议。不过我是罗伯特·萨波斯基（Robert Sapolsky）的死忠粉，既然他都信这一套，那对我来说这就够了。
我一直很好奇非二元性别者在那块区域的神经元数量是不是处于中间值。
[已删除]86 赞2025/8/20
I'm trans and I bring this story up sometimes! It does kind of make people go quiet and contemplative in fact.
我自己就是跨性别，有时候我也会提这个故事！说实话，这事儿确实能让人们瞬间安静下来，陷入深思。
TheCommonGround124 赞2025/8/20
I've actually brought this up as evidence for trans being real (which should be obviously). The brain determines gender, not genitals. Sometimes the brain's gender and the genitalia do not match. Simple!
我其实也把这事当成跨性别客观存在的证据（这本来就该是显而易见的）。是大脑决定了性别，而不是生殖器。有时候大脑的性别和生理性别就是对不上，就这么简单！
taterrrtotz24 赞2025/8/20
More like you get a bad hair cut so you decide to scalp yourself instead 🫠
这比喻简直像是理发剪坏了，你就决定直接把自己头皮给削了🫠
saintsithney24 赞2025/8/20
More like you took your baby to the barber and they poured battery acid on your kid's scalp, giving you the option of having the baby's buttocks skinned and made into a new scalp. "Botched circumcision" is the polite way of saying a doctor accidentally burnt the penis off an infant who was probably unmedicated for pain, seeing as pain management for infants wasn't really a thing.
更贴切的比喻是：你带孩子去理发，结果理发师把电瓶酸泼在了孩子头皮上，然后告诉你，现在的补救办法是从孩子屁股上割块皮缝到头顶上做个新头皮。
DustierAndRustier20 赞2025/8/20
The doctor was inexperienced. He used an electrocautery tool to make the cut, but also used a metal clamp to reduce bleeding (which is unnecessary because the electrocautery tool stops the bleeding anyway). The tool touched the clamp, which conducted the electric current and led to his entire penis being burned down to a stump.
医生缺乏经验。他使用电烙工具进行切割，但也使用金属夹来减少出血（这是不必要的，因为电烙工具无论如何都会止血）。该工具接触了夹子，夹子传导了电流，导致他的整个阴茎被烧成残肢。
Pick_Scotland129 赞2025/8/20
Depends on what botched means Did they lob off the old bell end or was it a minor cut into it instead
取决于糟糕的意思 他们是把旧的钟形端切掉还是稍微切了一点
NiceTrySuckaz116 赞2025/8/20
Oh my god, I just read the wiki >They were referred for circumcision at the age of seven months. General practitioner Jean-Marie Huot performed the operation using the unconventional method of electrocauterization, but the procedure burned David's penis beyond surgical repair. Doctors done burnt his pecker off
天哪，我刚刚看了维基百科 >他们在七个月大时被转诊接受包皮环切术。全科医生让·玛丽·胡特（Jean-Marie Huot）使用非常规的电烧方法进行了手术，但手术烧伤了大卫的阴茎，无法进行手术修复。 医生烧掉了他的阴茎
Pick_Scotland138 赞2025/8/20
Fuck that’s worse
他妈的，这更糟糕
RedditJABRONIE53 赞2025/8/21
Oh fuck what do I do? How could I hide this and not lose my medical license. "Yeah we should really chop it off and throw it away. In fact, we should hide this from anyone and everyone. We should even start telling people you never had a boy in the first place"
哦他妈的我该怎么办？我怎样才能隐瞒这一点而不被吊销我的行医执照。 “是的，我们真的应该把它砍掉并扔掉。事实上，我们应该向所有人隐瞒这一点。我们甚至应该开始告诉人们你一开始就没有生过男孩。”
skycatcutie34 赞2025/8/20
I really wonder what they told people in their personal life when they started presenting their 7 month old baby boy as a girl. That poor baby was failed by every single adult around them
我真的很想知道当他们开始将 7 个月大的男婴呈现为女孩时，他们在个人生活中告诉了人们什么。那个可怜的孩子被周围的每个成年人都辜负了
WanabeVarbie26 赞2025/8/19
For real i hope he grew up and lived life and enjoyed it despite these assholes Eta: he married an actress. Still committed suicide in 2004. Damn Eta2: this gets so much worse Brian was the twin brother of (Bruce) aka David Reimer. Their case was widely reported for the story of David's botched circumcision, which caused his parents to allow him to be reared as a girl. Ultimately, the shock of it all was too much, the boys became estranged when the truth was revealed. When David decided to go public, with his book, As Nature Made Him, initially Brian was supportive, however, it caused him serious mental disturbance and he was eventually diagnosed as having schizophrenia. He committed suicide by taking an overdose of his medications for schizophrenia. David was devastated. He tended Brian's grave, cleaning it and leaving flowers. David also commited suicide, two years later.
说实话，我希望他能够长大并享受生活，尽管有这些混蛋 埃塔：他娶了一位女演员。 2004年还是自杀了。妈的 Eta2：情况变得更糟 布莱恩是（布鲁斯）又名大卫·雷默的双胞胎兄弟。 他们的案件因大卫失败的包皮环切术而被广泛报道，这导致他的父母允许他作为女孩抚养。最终，这一切的震惊太大了，当真相揭晓后，男孩们变得疏远了。 当大卫决定出版他的书《自然造就他》时，布莱恩一开始很支持，然而，这给他带来了严重的精神障碍，最终他被诊断出患有精神分裂症。 他因服用过量治疗精神分裂症的药物而自杀。 大卫伤心欲绝。他照料布莱恩的坟墓，清理墓地并留下鲜花。两年后，大卫也自杀了。
1,065 赞2025/8/20
David commited suicide in 2004. Read more here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
大卫于 2004 年自杀。在此了解更多信息 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
1,088 赞2025/8/21
*'According to John Colapinto, who published a biography of Reimer in 2001, the sessions with Money included what Money called "childhood sexual rehearsal play". Money theorized that reproductive behaviour formed the foundation of gender, and that "play at thrusting movements and copulation" was a key aspect of gender development in all primates. Starting at age six, according to Brian, the twins were forced to act out sexual acts, with David playing the female role—Money made David get down on all fours, and Brian was forced to "come up behind [him] and place his crotch against [his] buttocks". Money also forced David, in another sexual position, to have his "legs spread" with Brian on top. On "at least one occasion" Money took a photograph of the two children doing these activities.'* Fucking awful, poor kids.
*根据 2001 年出版的雷默传记约翰·科拉平托 (John Colapinto) 的说法，与马尼的会谈包括马尼所说的“童年性排练”。莫尼认为，生殖行为构成了性别的基础，而“推力运动和交配的游戏”是所有灵长类动物性别发展的一个关键方面。据布莱恩说，从六岁开始，双胞胎就被迫进行性行为，大卫扮演女性角色——金钱让大卫四肢着地，布莱恩被迫“走到[他]身后，将胯部抵住[他的]臀部”。金钱还迫使大卫以另一种性姿势“张开双腿”，布莱恩在上面。 “至少有一次”莫尼拍下了两个孩子进行这些活动的照片。”* 太他妈糟糕了，可怜的孩子们。
496 赞2025/8/20
He's a sick fk. He only felt "mortified" by the case in 1996 when David ended his life, and Money finally got flack from the media, movement groups and activists. I wonder how many other victims fell into his experiments. "When either child resisted Money, Money would get angry. Both Reimer and Brian recall that Money was mild-mannered around their parents, but ill-tempered when alone with them. Money also forced the two children to strip for "genital inspections"; when they resisted inspecting each other's genitals, Money got very aggressive. Reimer says, "He told me to take my clothes off, and I just did not do it. I just stood there. And he screamed, 'Now!' Louder than that. I thought he was going to give me a whupping. So I took my clothes off and stood there shaking." Edited: both of the twins ended their own lives.
他是个病态的混蛋。 1996年，大卫结束了自己的生命，他才对此案感到“羞愧”，而莫尼最终也遭到了媒体、运动团体和活动人士的严厉批评。我想知道还有多少受害者落入他的实验之中。 “当任何一个孩子抗拒Money时，Money就会生气。雷默和布莱恩都记得，Money在父母面前态度温和，但与父母独处时脾气暴躁。Money还强迫两个孩子脱光衣服进行“生殖器检查”；当他们拒绝检查彼此的生殖器时，Money变得非常具有攻击性。雷默说，“他让我脱掉衣服，但我没有这么做。我只是站在那里。他尖叫道：“现在！”比那还大声。我以为他要打我一顿。于是我脱掉衣服站在那里发抖。” 编辑：双胞胎都结束了自己的生命。
194 赞2025/8/19
If you look into the wiki article on Money alone, it states he coined new terms for pedophilia as well and saw it as, essentially, normal. I just went down like a 3 hour rabbit hole so I'm not going to cite it, but he was a fucking piece of shit.
你光是去搜搜 Money 的维基百科词条，上面就写了他还造了些恋童癖的新术语，甚至觉得那玩意儿本质上是“正常”的。我刚才刚在那儿深挖了三个小时，懒得再找引用了，但这货简直就是个彻头彻尾的人渣。
67 赞2025/8/19
Studied this case as a sociology major and still end up in the rabbit hole every couple years
我读社会学专业时研究过这个案子，结果每隔几年还是会忍不住陷进去深挖一遍。
17 赞2025/8/21
I remember learning about this in some college classes. I didn’t know they died a couple years before I learned about them in class. Crazy.
我记得大学课上学过这个。我当时都不知道他们在课上教我的时候，当事人其实几年前就已经去世了。太离谱了。
61 赞2025/8/20
So he was a pedophile whose life work was justifying pedophilia. How horrific.
所以这家伙不仅是个恋童癖，还把为恋童癖洗白当成了毕生事业。太丧心病狂了。
215 赞2025/8/20
David ended his life in 2004, not 1996. Brian ODed in 2002.
David 是 2004 年自杀的，不是 1996 年。
94 赞2025/8/20
On Money's wiki it says Brian ODed on antidepressants. Seems both died by suicide.
Money 的维基上写的是 Brian 死于抗抑郁药过量。看来两人都是自杀的。
87 赞2025/8/20
I hate their parents so much! And I hate a society that just allowed that to happen! WHAT THE FUCK!!!
我真的太恨他们父母了！我也恨那个对这种事听之任之的社会！这他妈到底是什么鬼！！！
76 赞2025/8/19
Their parents were just doing what the doctor recommended. :/ a terrible decision but not their idea
他们父母当时只是照医生的建议做而已。:/ 虽然是个极其糟糕的决定，但并不是他们的主意。
66 赞2025/8/20
This was the 60s, and they likely had no idea this sexual play acting and naked inspections were going on.
那可是 60 年代，他们大概率根本不知道所谓的“性角色扮演”和“裸体检查”到底是在干什么。
334 赞2025/8/21
POV: You are John Money on July 7, 2006: 
第一视角：此时是 2006 年 7 月 7 日的 John Money：
108 赞2025/8/19
Jesus Christ, did anyone end up in jail? Or at least have their medical license revoked?
我去，最后真有人坐牢吗？至少吊销行医执照了吧？
37 赞2025/8/19
Not from what I’ve read
我看过的资料里没提这事儿
35 赞2025/8/19
Sex crimes? Against kids? Jail? If he was alive he’d be in the White House.
性犯罪？还是针对小孩？坐牢？他要是还活着，估计都能进白宫了。
45 赞2025/8/20
There was a Law and Order SVU episode based on this case. I’m horrified that it had so much truth to it
《法律与秩序：特殊受害者》里有一集就是根据这个案子拍的。一想到这居然大部分都是事实，我整个人都不好了，太恐怖了。
26 赞2025/8/20
wtf 🤢🤢🤢🤮
什么鬼🤢🤢🤢🤮
29 赞2025/8/21
The fuck
这TM什么玩意儿
190 赞2025/8/19
David and his twin brother Brian were made to attend 'sessions' by a 'psychologist' named John Money, who used the boys to prove his theory that gender is socially constructed. From the wiki article: >Starting at age six, according to Brian, the twins were forced to act out sexual acts, with David playing the female role—Money made David get down on all fours, and Brian was forced to "come up behind [him] and place his crotch against [his] buttocks". Money also forced David, in another sexual position, to have his "legs spread" with Brian on top. On "at least one occasion" Money took a photograph of the two children doing these activities. I...I have no words. I've read a lot of awful shit online, but this made my blood run cold.
大卫和他的双胞胎兄弟布莱恩被迫参加了一个名叫约翰·莫尼（John Money）的“心理学家”搞的“疗程”，这个莫尼利用这两个男孩来证明他那套“性别是社会建构”的理论。
摘自维基百科：
>据布莱恩所言，从六岁开始，这对双胞胎就被强迫表演性行为，由大卫扮演女性角色——莫尼让大卫四肢着地趴下，并强迫布莱恩“从背后贴上来，把裆部抵住（大卫的）臀部”。在另一种性姿势中，莫尼还强迫大卫“双腿张开”，让布莱恩压在上面。莫尼甚至在“至少一次”活动中，给这两个孩子拍照留证。
我……我简直无语。我在网上看过很多烂事儿，但这桩真的让我不寒而栗。
155 赞2025/8/21
And he never admitted he was wrong or apologized. What was even worse is other psychologists tried to defend him and claimed the twins created identical false memories years later about all the sexual things Money made them do. There’s a lot of horrible people who are considered experts.
而且他至死都没认错，也没道歉。更过分的是，其他心理学家居然还为他开脱，声称这对双胞胎在多年后产生了相同的虚假记忆，把曼尼逼他们做的一切都给“编”出来了。这圈子里真有不少披着专家外衣的畜生。
99 赞2025/8/19
It takes a special kind of monster to sexually abuse children *then blame the children*. Hell is far too good for such people.
得是什么级别的恶魔才能一边性侵孩子，一边还反过来责怪孩子啊。这种人下地狱都太便宜他们了。
42 赞2025/8/21
Happens all the time, unfortunately.
不幸的是，这种事儿天天都在发生。
36 赞2025/8/21
It happens more often then you think. Most people who sexually abused children either blame the children because they legitimately believe it's their fault or to defend themselves despite knowing it wasn't the children's fault. It is disgusting in both circumstances and people like that don't deserve any sympathy
这种事比你想象的要频繁得多。大多数猥亵儿童的人，要么是因为真的信了这套逻辑而把锅甩给孩子，要么就是心里明知不是孩子的错，为了自保强行甩锅。不管是哪种情况都恶心透了，这种人根本不值得同情。
53 赞2025/8/20
My father started raping me when I was 11, and blames me. Says I seduced him. I think he actually believes it. He would always talk about how this and that young girl was clearly eyeing him and wanting to sleep with him. It's depressing how common monsters like him are.
我爸从我11岁就开始强奸我，还把错全推给我，说是我勾引他。我觉得他是真的信了这套说辞。他以前总念叨说这小姑娘、那小姑娘在那儿对他暗送秋波，想跟他睡。像他这种人渣竟然这么普遍，真是让人绝望。
34 赞2025/8/20
Yeah my brother raped me when I was 8, he still blames me for being resentful of him and "difficult"
确实，我8岁那年被我哥强奸了，他现在还怪我对他怀恨在心，说我“难相处”。
19 赞2025/8/19
That's messed up
这简直太丧心病狂了。
22 赞2025/8/19
I mean, only self-obsorbed disgusting people would touch a child like your father or my brother did, it's not shocking they remain self-obsorbed enough to thing children can consent/want to seduce them and truly think they are the victims when those children grow up to be traumatised and resentful of them It's still awful though, the world truly needs to be a safer place for children and have better ways to not only protect them but also demand justice when disgusting people take advantage of them.
我的意思是，只有像你爸或者我哥那种极度自私自利、恶心透顶的人才会对孩子下手。这种人一直自私到骨子里，觉得孩子能同意或者想勾引他们，这倒也不让人意外。当这些孩子长大后变得创伤深重、对他们心怀怨恨时，他们甚至真觉得自己才是受害者。
15 赞2025/8/20
Oh my god I'm so sorry and can't say sorry enough that happened to you. He's a heinous man. I hope you're doing okay now
天呐，我真的太难受了，对你遭遇的这些事，我说多少句对不起都不够。他就是个禽兽。希望你现在一切都好。
15 赞2025/8/20
After lots of therapy and lots of support from my husband and mother, I'm doing quite well. Thank you.
经过长期的心理咨询，还有我丈夫和我妈的支持，我现在状态挺好的。谢谢你。
23 赞2025/8/19
You should check out Elizabeth Loftus. She was very big on the False Memory concept as it started out, but instead focused her time on being an expert witness defending people in court for SA and (attempted) murder on the grounds other witnesses could have been confused and made-it up without realising. OJ, Ted Bundy, Maxwell… even a fellow psychologist accused of molesting his daughter got the “she’s just crazy” defence. Sometimes it even worked.
你应该去了解下伊丽莎白·洛夫特斯（Elizabeth Loftus）。她早期在“虚假记忆”概念上名气很大，后来她把时间都花在给法院的性侵和（企图）谋杀案件当专家证人上，理由是其他目击者可能搞混了，或者在不知情的情况下编造了事实。
24 赞2025/8/20
The fact that he was sexually abused throughout his whole childhood makes me so sad.
想到他整个童年都在遭受性虐待，我真的好难过。
22 赞2025/8/19
What a horrendous experience for this entire (presumably well intentioned) family. From botched surgery to misguided "therapy" to sexual abuse, bullying and suicide, every attempt to fix a bad situation made things worse.
对这一家人（想必也是好心）来说，这真是极其恐怖的经历。从搞砸的手术到误导人的“治疗”，再到性虐待、霸凌和自杀，每一次想要解决困境的尝试，最终都让情况变得更糟。
640 赞2025/8/20
That doctor should have had his license revoked and sued to with in an inch of existence. No doctor should ever, EVER suggest just castrate a child.
这医生早该被吊销执照，还得让他赔到倾家荡产。任何医生都不该、绝对不该随随便便就建议给孩子做阉割手术。
389 赞2025/8/20
They shouldn’t even suggest a circumcision if there is no medical need. Thats where the problem began.
就算没有医疗上的必要性，他们连割礼（包皮环切）都不该提。问题的根源就在这儿。
150 赞2025/8/20
Religion has entered the chat.
宗教信仰上线了。
94 赞2025/8/20
Doesn’t matter, the state has to be independent from religious institutions. Religion can not be allowed to have a say in this.
这不重要，国家必须和宗教机构保持独立。绝不能让宗教在这事儿上指手画脚。
31 赞2025/8/20
“Um ackshually it reduced HIV transmission by 0.7% in sub Saharan Africa, so it’s urgent for public health and access needs to be provided worldwide” -American doctors getting eyerolled by everyone else at the international medical conference.
“那个，其实呢，它在撒哈拉以南非洲降低了0.7%的艾滋病传播率，所以这对于全球公共卫生和医疗普及来说至关重要”——美国医生在国际医学会议上发言，换来了在场所有人的白眼。
202 赞2025/8/20
A strong contender for worst parents in the world
竞选“全球最差父母”的强力竞争者。
27 赞2025/8/20
They were talked into it by a very convincing doctor. They were told everything would be fine. And they regretted their choice for the rest of their lives.
他们是被一个很有煽动力的医生给忽悠了。医生当时跟他们保证一切都会好起来的。结果他们余生都在为这个决定而后悔。
78 赞2025/8/20
Reading the Wikipedia article posted by OP, it seems like the parents at each stage were trying to do best by their kids at each stage, but they were failed horrifically by medical "professionals" - first the doctor who botched the circumcision and then by the quack shrink whose self-serving and abusive methods no doubt contributed to the trauma that resulted in both brothers eventual deaths.
看了楼主发的维基百科词条，感觉这对父母在每一个阶段似乎都想给孩子最好的，但他们被那些所谓的医疗“专家”坑惨了——先是那个把包皮手术搞砸的医生，后来又是那个庸医心理学家。那家伙自私自利、变态的治疗手段，毫无疑问加剧了孩子的心理创伤，直接导致了这对兄弟最终的悲剧。
94 赞2025/8/19
No, they were good parents who listened to a bad person (psychologist I believe) who told them this would be better for him. The guy just wanted to do this experiment and when it was going poorly as David knew something was very wrong the doctor just made up the results to say how great it was going.
不，他们其实是好父母，只是听信了一个坏人（我记得是心理学家）的鬼话，那家伙骗他们说这样做对孩子更好。那混蛋纯粹就是想做实验，当孩子察觉到不对劲、实验进度走偏的时候，那个医生居然还伪造报告，吹嘘实验进行得有多成功。
30 赞2025/8/20
The parents were victims too. They took thejr boy to the best specialist on gender at the time, someone they saw on TV, and were convinced by him and a team of doctors that what they were doing was in the best interest of their child.
其实这对父母也是受害者。他们带儿子找的是当时性别领域最好的专家，那是他们在电视上看到过的人物。他们被那个专家和背后的医疗团队洗脑了，以为自己做的一切都是为了孩子好。
15 赞2025/8/19
The parents were also victims of John Money.
父母其实也是约翰·莫尼（John Money）暴行的受害者。
201 赞2025/8/19
I remember the SVU episode based on this story.. it was pretty fucked up
我记得《法律与秩序：特殊受害者》（SVU）有一集就是根据这个故事拍的……真是操蛋到家了。
107 赞2025/8/20
Really fucked. I remember it aired my sophomore year of college and as a psych undergrad inspired me to dig in more deeply to the history of treatment modalities of intersex persons and then it grew into a capstone project of over a year looking at gender affirming care. Boy was I fun to talk to at thanksgiving dinner for a while….
真的太操蛋了。我记得那集播出时我大二，作为心理学本科生，这事儿激发了我深入研究双性人治疗模式历史的兴趣，后来它还成了我一年多的毕业课题，专门探讨性别肯定护理（gender affirming care）。
36 赞2025/8/20
As a trans person, it's always nice to hear about people who study intersex and trans people. While trans people are not the same as intersex people, there is a lot of overlap in our treatments, and some intersex people do consider themselves transgender. David Reimer's case was actually very impactful for trans research. It's the case that made doctors, psychologists, etc realize that it's dangerous and inhumane to force someone to live as the gender they don't align with. And it did a lot to prove that gender is something that can't be changed by external factors. David did show a lot of signs that he wasn't comfortable living as a girl, even from a young age when he had no clue what had been done to him. Similarly, many trans people show signs from very young ages. I showed signs by 5 years old. And conversion therapy has a nasty suicide rate, like how David's life ended (you could even argue that his life was basically a cruel conversion therapy experiment, but done on a cis person). It's just sickening that it takes such horrible stories sometimes for doctors and psychologists to learn what not to do.
作为跨性别者，能听到有人研究双性人和跨性别者群体总是件好事。虽然跨性别者和双性人不是一回事，但我们在治疗方案上有很大重合，而且有些双性人也把自己归为跨性别者。
大卫·雷默（David Reimer）的案例对跨性别研究其实影响巨大。正是这个案例让医生、心理学家们意识到，强迫一个人以不认同的性别生活是多么危险且没人性。它很大程度上证明了性别不是外力能改变的东西。大卫从小就表现出很多对以女性身份生活的不适感，哪怕当时他根本不知道自己经历过什么。同样，很多跨性别者在很小的时候就会表现出征兆。我5岁时就表现出来了。而且“扭转治疗”的自杀率高得离谱，就像大卫最后的人生结局那样（你甚至可以说他的一生就是一场对顺性别者进行的残酷扭转治疗实验）。
最让人作呕的是，有时候非得等到这种惨绝人寰的故事发生，医生和心理学家才能学会什么事儿是绝对不能做的。
189 赞2025/8/20
[内容已删除]
38 赞2025/8/21
His brother died of a drug overdose two years earlier (if it was intentional nvm, I don't have details). Not to downplay your comment in any way because God damn this story is bad. Even worse, it's not the only time this (the botched surgical part) has happened. In 1985 there was a strikingly similar case in Atlanta, settled through mediation. The only reason I know about it was because the doctor was still practicing and my parents' obstetrician for my eldest brother. They mentioned the doctor's name to a friend who also happened to know the doctor (and the story) who warned them to get a new obstetrician.
他兄弟在两年前死于药物过量（如果那是蓄意的当我没说，我没掌握细节）。我这么说绝不是想淡化你的评论，毕竟该死，这故事确实太糟糕了。
更糟糕的是，这种情况（手术失败那部分）不是头一遭。1985年在亚特兰大发生过一起惊人相似的案子，最后通过调解解决了。我之所以知道这事儿，是因为当时那医生还在执业，而且还是我父母给我大哥找的产科医生。
我父母跟一位朋友提过这医生的名字，巧的是那位朋友也认识这医生（也知道那档子事），赶紧警告他们换个产科医生。
16 赞2025/8/19
Brian specifically overdosed *on perscription meds*, so yeah, suicide is an accurate discription. It wasn't recreational junkie shit, it was a choice to poison himself, and I personally feel that the use of the term "OD" in this case has specifically been used to dismiss and decredit the suffering these two went through. I might be mislead, though, it was part of a brief unit in one of my college courses. A footnote, really. Edit to clarify: Even if it was "Junkie Shit", I don't think that really changes much.
布莱恩（Brian）确实是死于*处方药*过量，所以“自杀”这个描述是准确的。那不是嗑药滥用，而是他选择毒死自己。我个人觉得在这个案例里用“OD”（药物过量）这个词，纯粹是为了贬低和否定这两人所遭受的痛苦。
154 赞2025/8/20
*When either child resisted these activities, Money would get angry. Both David and Brian recall that Money was mild-mannered around their parents, but ill-tempered when alone with them. When they resisted inspecting each other's genitals, Money got very aggressive. David says, "He told me to take my clothes off, and I just did not do it. I just stood there. And he screamed, 'Now!' Louder than that. I thought he was going to give me a whupping. So I took my clothes off and stood there shaking."* I HOPE HE'S BURNING IN HELL
*“当两个孩子反抗这些活动时，莫尼就会发火。据戴维和布莱恩回忆，莫尼在他们父母面前表现得文质彬彬，但只要和他们单独在一起，脾气就非常暴躁。当他们拒绝互相检查生殖器时，莫尼就会变得极具攻击性。戴维说：‘他让我脱掉衣服，我没动，就站在那儿。他尖叫着说：“现在！”声音大得吓人。我以为他要揍我，所以我脱了衣服，站在那儿直打哆嗦。’”*
43 赞2025/8/20
Everything about his story is heartbreaking. That said, I can understand how a stupid and misguided person of that era might have believed in nuture over nature. It still would be wrong, but I can at least wrap my head around the concept. But having *children*, SIBBLINGS NO LESS, perform sexual acts with *eachother* _in front of an adult_ is BEYOND my understanding and is gross, warped, and down right evil.
他的故事从头到尾都让人心碎。
话虽如此，我多少能理解那个年代一个愚蠢又误入歧途的人为什么会相信“后天教育决定论”。这观念肯定是不对的，但我至少还能理解这种逻辑是怎么形成的。
但让*孩子们*，甚至还是*亲兄弟姐妹*，在成年人眼皮子底下做出那种性行为，这已经超出了我的理解范畴，简直是恶心、扭曲，彻头彻尾的邪恶。
34 赞2025/8/21
I'm sorry, I can't think of this as anything other than pedophilia. He even took pictures. He was a pervert.
抱歉，我无法把这看作除恋童癖以外的任何事。他甚至还拍了照片。他就是个变态。
15 赞2025/8/19
> stupid and misguided person Unfortunately, Money was neither of that - not only was this whole experiment extremely unethical, but Money also falsified the science. For decades Money claimed in his research that the "John/Joan" case was a great success, that David Reimer grew up as a well adjusted girl and that this proved his theories that gender was a social construct and not biological. Reality couldn't be further from the truth - David Reimer suffered greatly through his whole childhood and have stated he always felt like a boy and was on the brink of taking his own life when he was 14, when his parents finally caved and told him the truth. Money knew this, but instead of being a honest scientist, he straight up lied and pretended everything had gone fine, and never revealed that the experiment had come to an abrupt end to the scientific community. As a result his "John/Joan" papers were treated as scientific truth and proof that gender was a social construct for decades. Due to this, Money and his theories and claims were extremely influential in fields like Gender Studies. It was only towards the end of the 90s when the truth was revealed, and by then Money status in his fields had been cemented, and remnants of many of his theories and ideas still remain.
> 愚蠢且被误导的人
很遗憾，Money两样都不是——这个实验不仅极其违背伦理，而且Money还伪造了科学研究结果。
几十年来，Money在研究中坚称“John/Joan”案例是一个巨大的成功，声称David Reimer成长为一个适应良好的女孩，并以此证明他关于性别是社会建构而非生理决定论的理论。
事实恰恰相反——David Reimer整个童年都饱受折磨。他曾表示自己一直觉得自己是个男孩，在14岁时，当父母终于妥协并告诉他真相时，他已濒临自杀。
Money对此心知肚明，但他没有做一个诚实的科学家，而是直接撒谎，假装一切进展顺利，并且从未向科学界透露实验已经戛然而止。结果，他的“John/Joan”论文在几十年里被当作科学真理，被视为性别是社会建构的证据。正因如此，Money及其理论和主张在性别研究等领域极具影响力。
直到90年代末，真相才大白于天下。但那时Money在相关领域的地位早已根深蒂固，他许多理论和思想的残余至今依然存在。
111 赞2025/8/19
John Money is still seen as a god at John Hopkins, they gave him a standing ovation before his death at his retirement party…. The guy was a sick fuck who sexually abused those two boys, in the name of “science”.
约翰·莫尼在约翰·霍普金斯大学依然被奉为神明，他退休欢送会上，大家甚至起立为他鼓掌……但这人就是个变态人渣，打着“科学”的旗号性侵了那两个男孩。
86 赞2025/8/20
Another reason to let the man choose his own circumcision.
这又是一个应该让男人自己决定是否割包皮的理由。
50 赞2025/8/21
This kind of shit still happens all the time to intersex kids, it's absolutely horrific
这种破事儿至今还在不停地发生在双性人孩子身上，简直惨绝人寰。
18 赞2025/8/19
And it seems like only intersex activists talk about it. I really wish people were more aware.
而且看起来似乎只有双性人权益活动家在谈论这事儿。真希望大家能多关注一下。
47 赞2025/8/19
What fucking Doctor would recommend this, Dr. Mengale!
到底是什么鬼医生会推荐这种方案？那是门格尔医生转世吧！
45 赞2025/8/21
His twin died two years earlier, and he was still mourning it. He had recently lost his job, lost 65,000 dollars, and his wife left him two days before. All that awful stuff going on, even without the fucked up childhood, it's no wonder he ended it. That poor man. :(
他的双胞胎兄弟早两年就去世了，他还没走出悲痛。最近他又丢了工作，赔了6万5千美元，老婆也在两天前跟他离了婚。经历了这么多糟心事，哪怕没有那段被毁掉的童年，他想不开也是正常的。真是个可怜人。:(
45 赞2025/8/19
If conservatives were swayed by facts, they might be glad at the fact we know you can't turn a person trans.
如果保守派能被事实说服的话，他们应该会为“我们已经证实人无法被强制转性”这一事实感到庆幸才是。
43 赞2025/8/20
Another good argument for banning male genital mutilation
这又是禁止男性生殖器切除手术的一个有力论据。
26 赞2025/8/20
Proof you cannot force a gender or sexual orientation on someone. So: 1. Conversion therapy doesn’t work. 2. Your kids seeing gays on TV or streets won’t turn them gay.
这证明了你无法强行改变一个人的性别或性取向。所以：
1. 转化疗法根本没用。
2. 你家孩子在电视上或街上看到同性恋，并不会把他们也变成同性恋。
19 赞2025/8/20
Almost like gender identity is a real thing and not based on physical attributes . Almost as if your soul knew where it belongs.
就好像性别认同是真实存在的东西，而不是由生理特征决定的。就好像你的灵魂自始至终都知道自己属于哪里。
18 赞2025/8/20
You forgot to leave out that he killed himself
你漏了最重要的一点：他自杀了。
14 赞2025/8/21
This should have never passed John’sl Hopkins’ IRB or ethics committee although since the 1960s/1970s were a terrible time for ethical psychological research in general (Zimbardo did his Stanford prison experiment in 1971), it probably wasn’t reviewed by anyone. I just fail to understand why multiple people with doctoral degrees thought this was a good idea although I am looking at this through the very different lens of someone who completed graduate school for Clinical Psychology in the 2010s. This violates just about every ethical guideline in place today and Money had motive to ensure the outcome in the case was favorable to his hypothesis and I suspect his data was highly affected by confirmation bias.
这事儿根本就不该通过约翰霍普金斯大学的 IRB（机构审查委员会）或者伦理委员会。不过考虑到 60、70 年代那会儿整个心理学界的伦理底线都烂透了（津巴多 1971 年搞的斯坦福监狱实验就是个例子），估计当时压根就没人审过。
12 赞2025/8/21
Imagine that conversation he (at the time she) would have with their parents: "So...we figured we would OK an unneccessary operation to cut off a part of your penis, but then something got wrong, your penis was burnt, so we decided - cut it all off. Oh, and also take the balls. What would you do with balls if you don't have a penis, right? And then it just made sense to put you in a dress, after there was nothing more to chop off."
想象一下他（当时还是她）和父母的那场对话：
“是这样的……我们觉得给你做个不必要的手术切掉一部分丁丁没问题，结果出了岔子，你的丁丁被烧伤了，所以我们决定——把它全切了。哦，对了，还得把蛋蛋也切了。既然都没丁丁了，还要蛋蛋干嘛，对吧？然后我们觉得既然没啥可切的了，干脆让你穿上裙子，这逻辑完全说得通。”
10 赞2025/8/19
Reminds me of the movie ‘Sleepaway Camp’
让我想到了电影《血腥死亡营》。
10 赞2025/8/21
Name the "doctor", John Money. He also molested both of them and they both ended up killing themselves.
把那个“医生”的名字点出来，他叫约翰·曼尼（John Money）。他不仅骚扰过那对兄弟，最后这两人也都自杀了。
7 赞2025/8/20
Honor ya and the doctor who recommenced this insanely fucked up “fix” should’ve all went to jail
那个所谓的医生，还有所有建议搞这种变态“修复”手术的混蛋，全都该蹲大牢。
7 赞2025/8/21
You forgot to leave out that he killed himself
你漏了最重要的一点：他自杀了。
6 赞2025/8/21
This case is well known and has strongly influenced understanding of sexual identity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
这个案例非常出名，对理解性别认同有着深远影响。https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
6 赞2025/8/19
Transphobes insist this story supports their claims even though it's literally about a person having a gender identity that conflicts with their sex assigned at birth
恐跨群体总是咬死说这个故事能支撑他们的观点，可事实上，这案例讲的明明就是一个人的性别认同与出生时指定的性别不符。