At that point Hitler was seen as a decent leader (I said at that point, AT THAT POINT AT THAT POINT REDDIT)
那会儿希特勒确实被视为一个不错的领导人(我说的是那会儿,是那会儿,在那会儿Reddit网友消消气)
SergeantPsycho1,808 赞2025/7/5
This is an important thing to remember. The people in this photo didn't know then what we know now.
这点很重要,得记住。照片里的人那时候根本不知道我们现在所知的那些事。
RegorHK649 赞2025/7/5
One of the people was Edward VIII. "Many people in the 1930s thought this was an ideological war that they were living through. It's either communism or fascism and we have to support fascism," says Urbach. Prince Edward was "obsessed" by the murder of his Romanov cousins in Russia, she adds. [https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33594809](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33594809) He understood that the Nazis stood for violent struggle and instead of philosophically aligning himself with the current constitutional norms of the UK actually lent towards Hitler.
Mein Kampf was published in 1926. In that book Hitler expressed many of his views on how and who he considered subhumans and how it is the right thing to genocide everything to the east of Germany.
The picture happened 1933 or after. At this point the Nazis already used violent Nazi methods in politics.
这张照片是1933年或之后拍的。那时候纳粹在政治手段上早就开始玩暴力那套了。
[已删除]70 赞2025/7/6
While I understand we have so much information instantly at our fingertips today, I can't speak for how and who information was relayed to back in the early to late years in the 1900's. I remember growing up in the 90's that unless it was "world shattering" news, I didn't know a whole lot about things going on in Russia, Australia, or even Japan, just what cultural norms we were taught as kids. I had no idea that in the 1980's, Iran's culture shifted from a western civilization to a more religious extremism due to the rise of Islam. If you had asked me what I knew about the middle east, 90's kid version of me would have said I knew about Desert storm and that everyone wears robes and women cover their faces with traditional Islamic clothes. I only learned RECENTLY ( 2 years ago) that Iran was not like this at all and was under a Monarchy that valued Western values, that women could walk out in public without a man, that they worse clothes like the women in my life here in America would wear and have similar fashion styles, that men while sexist and dated for their time would still respect women as people and not objects or property. I think it's completely plausible that if this is indeed a young queen, that perhaps Hitler was still viewed at as somewhat favorable because of his accomplishments he made in Germany such us the advancements of the Autobahn and highways, the affordable vehicle that VW's produced, and being credited for helping Germany come out of poverty created from not only WWI but also the great depression. I can also believe that people back then doing salutes like this STILL didn't know about atrocities being committed because historians even today claim that the west only uncovered the bulk of the war crimes committed by Germany's old leadership AFTER the war was in its final year. The only people who knew about the terrible things the third Reich did were the people giving the orders, the people carrying out the orders, and those who were forever silenced after the order was carried out. For the most part, the rest of the world was too busy trying to fight back the Nazi soldiers to truly know what was happening behind enemy lines.
You know who probs had access to information? The Royal fucking family lmao
你知道谁最有可能掌握信息吗?英国王室那帮老铁呗,笑死。
LogOverall190531 赞2025/7/6
A lot of people claim they read it but they haven’t. When I read it years ago I was surprised to find out it was more rants about great Germany, his plan to defeat France with some rambling about races. I don’t even remember if there was anything about Jews in there. Again it was years ago and it was painful to read.
There absolutely is the groundwork for the Aryan superiority, Jews as corrupters of culture and as an existential threat to Aryan society. There wasn’t just ramblings about races. When you have an outline of you being part of the in-group, and when you really start to face problems like inflation, and depression, it’s easy to see why people fall into the trap of believing that the others are the reason for their woes. Especially with a propaganda machine at work. If you think America is fucked now, wait until these new economic policies push us into a full blown depression. That’s the tipping point. We already have the same groundwork laid, just a different flavor.
The Queen mum was a grown woman. The one filming was probably Elizabeth's father, George VI. All of Prince Philip's sisters were married with German officers, one of them even SS. Also, by the time of the Munich treaty, the Nazis had already bombed Guernica and enacted the Nuremberg race laws. Totalitarianism had been in force since 1934. A little too convenient to blame it all on uncle Eddie.
Can’t terribly say I blame him if he can’t stop thinking about how the Soviets murdered his cousins. Reading about how it happened is brutal.
如果他满脑子都是他那些被苏联人谋杀的表亲,我也真没法怪他。读到那段历史的真相简直太残暴了。
toggiz_the_elder109 赞2025/7/5
His cousins were violently oppressing their people. The Czar was a piece of shit.
他那些表亲当时在暴力镇压人民。沙皇就是个烂人。
throwaway123420lol134 赞2025/7/5
Yeah, usually people are willing to acknowledge that. It's the children that were also murdered that most people get upset about. They hadn't oppressed anyone, yet..
是啊,这点大家通常都承认。但让人们真正无法接受的是那些被杀的孩子。他们还没来得及压迫谁呢……
taylorbagel1459 赞2025/7/5
And (I’m not sure this was common knowledge or if even a king would’ve known this at the time) the young girls died brutally. Unbeknownst to the soldiers, they had sewn jewels into their dresses and when the guards started shooting them, the bullets killed the parents, servants, and son but ricocheted off of the girls. The guards then had to come in and bludgeon and bayonet the girls to death. The oldest (Olga) was only 23 and the youngest (Anastasia) was 17. If they were my cousins I’d be pretty hung up on that myself.
Weren’t they also kinda just dumped in a ditch after they got gunned down, I might be remembering wrong
他们被枪决之后是不是就随便扔沟里了?我记忆可能有点模糊。
[已删除]46 赞2025/7/5
All but two were given a shallow mass grave in one secluded location and poorly covered in lye. Two more (the son and one of the daughters, there is some debate on which) were given the same treatment a little further away. To this day the two children's bodies' identities remain unrecognized by the Russian government and are seperate from the rest of their family. From what I understand the slaughtering and disposal were done hastily because nobody wanted that, even the guards who had actually formed friendships and celebrated birthdays with the children, and an approaching group was about to possibly free the family that day. It's been a while since I've researched it so don't take this second paragraph as fact
It’s partially true. The initially round of guards had become very close with the family, but the men under Yurovsky’s employ were new men who didn’t really know the family.
By the time they were murdered, the Czar had been out of power for several years and was confined under house arrest. His cousins were forced to abdicate in the February Revolution, and there was a provisional election that was held to determine whether Russia would become a Constitutional Monarchy under member of the Romanov family, or a Presidential Republic. Regardless of whether or not they were pieces of shit, they were no longer in power. When Lenin found that the Bolsheviks performed poorly, they staged a putsch using their resources from the Petrograd Soviet to overthrow the Provisional Government and start the October Revolution. Then, a few years into the Civil War, they murdered the Czar and his family.
Little girls were violently oppressing people? They murdered a bunch of children
小女孩在暴力镇压人民?他们杀掉的明明是一群孩子。
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Ibn_Ali59 赞2025/7/5
The children, no, but it wasn't like the Nazis magically turned into what we know them as overnight. Their violent antisemitism was already on full display, its just that more of society at the time was perfectly fine with it. Racism and hate were not as frowned upon as they are today. Obviously.
It wasn’t violent yet, but even then, people all over Europe hated Jews. Ireland for example were extremely hesitant to take in Jewish refugees from Germany citing “cultural differences”
那时候虽然还没发生暴力事件,但当时全欧洲的人都恨犹太人。
CratesManager19 赞2025/7/5
>people all over Europe hated Jews. See, that's true but it also goes against "they didn't know". They knew enough, they just tolerated or even endorsed it.
Yeah, like me saying Elon Musk is 'probably alright' 2 years ago....
是啊,这就跟我两年前说马斯克“这人估计还行”一样……
Super-Cynical22 赞2025/7/5
A lot of people don't know things until it's shoved right in their faces. Lots of Americans gave straight arm salutes at the book of condolence for the Hindenburg disaster, which was in 1937.
很多人不到火烧眉毛的时候,是根本不会去了解真相的。
AnakinSkycocker572690 赞2025/7/5
At that point he had been in jail already for attempting a militant coup and had already written mein kampf. Then he was in power and implementing his race laws. This is 1933
At the time everyone was more scared of communism. A right-wing government taking over what looked to be the hotbed of a new communist movement in Europe was welcomed by the rich and powerful. They either didn't know or turned a blind eye to all the communists, socialists, liberals, racial minorities, and sexual minorities being rounded up and killed.
Yeah, but my country’s propaganda said we were caught off guard.
嘿,但我们国家的宣传可是说我们是被打了个措手不及。
PancakeMixEnema38 赞2025/7/5
Hey hey, white Christian and heterosexual people with stable income and centrist views always need an additional decade to get to the point where they realise what the people not in that list already died for. Can’t blame them for ignoring everything. Do you expect them to care for the Union people already in the camps by that year, or the burned queer research institute? /s
No need to apologise. The west chose to support Stalin. His actions at the beginning of WW2 of invasion, murder, rape and deportations didn't seem to bother anyone. His end game was obvious. But the west still supported him.
"The west" was mostly doing the same in their colonies...
So I don't know what you wanted to convey there.
“西方”自己在殖民地干的事儿不也半斤八两么……
ChiefsHat17 赞2025/7/5
“West chose to support Stalin” in lieu of doing what? Who should the west have supported instead of Stalin?
“西方选择支持斯大林”,那不然呢?除此之外还能支持谁?
Fit_Rice_348528 赞2025/7/5
The “west” themselves committed rape, murder and segregation in the beginning of the war, so did Japan, so did Germany once they landed on USSR territory What was the “west” supposed to do? Stand by and watch as the Nazis did what the pleased? They already did that with the carving up of checkezlovakia with the “wests” help, this directly resulted in Stalin annexing his one half of Poland to use as a buffer for when the Nazis started their attack
I’m sorry but no. This photo was taken in either 1933 or 1934. By June 1933 the Nazis had already: Orchestrated the Reichstag fire to undemocratically seize power. Systematically terrorised and forcibly closed businesses and social spaces used by Jewish people, lgbtq people and other minorities Built Dachau Concentration Camp and started imprisoning protestors and workers wanting labour rights. Legally prohibited Jewish religious practices Purged the civil service Destroyed the institute of sexual research Institutes a program of forced sterilisation of autistic people and those deemed hereditarily ill Instituted the mass burning of books and knowledge that set some scientific and philosophical fields back decades Suspended a large majority of the civil liberties of the German populous. Regardless of the time period, NONE of these actions are those of a decent, moral leader.
This is the royal family of a liberal (original British meaning of the word, not the current American meaning), democratic nation that prides itself of ‘civilising the world’. They did know better.
I dont think the west were bothered by his antisemtism or the idea of being the superior race. At that time French murdered hundred of thousands of Algerian civilians, same thing in India, the US had a zoo where a black boy was on display, the Dreyfus trial in France, eugenic was a real science. People just want to blame everything bad on Hitler as if he was the only racist psychopath of his time.
Nah they agreed with what he implied in Mein Kampf. Jewish hatred was always more accepted than we realize
拉倒吧,他们其实认同他在《我的奋斗》里暗示的那套。反犹主义在当时可比我们意识到的要普遍得多。
RegorHK20 赞2025/7/5
What time was that? He published "Main Kampf" 1925. Not to blame princess Elisabeth, yet I find the opinion "he was seen as decent" ridiculous and a failure of journalism / perception by people who should know better. I do not mean you. I mean the people who did "see him as a decent leader". Or rather the dynamic, by witch his published political statements were not considered.
This is in 1933, and Queen Elizabeth II was 7 years old. This is a nothing burger. Edit: in 1933, plenty of people in numerous countries were sympathetic to the Nazis and many western countries had blatantly racist policies. Eugenics and scientific racism were very fashionable. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study
It is interesting as it shows political dynamics. She certainly did not do this because she researched Nazis on their own and got convinced. It shows how prevalent the symbols of the ideology were and how people misunderstood Hitlers goals. "Mein Kampf" was published 1925.
She didn't do it because she knew anything Hitler (even superficially). She did it because she was 7, her uncle was an actual Nazi, and he told her to do it. There's nothing about "political dynamics" here.
And her grandfather, King George V was German, had German royal titles, and had a German royal family name until he changed it to Windsor during WWI
而且她爷爷乔治五世国王是德国人,有德国皇室头衔,还有个德国皇室姓氏,直到一战时才改成了温莎。
AlfieOwens78 赞2025/7/6
An English translation wasn’t published until 1933, and that was an abridgment.
英译本直到1933年才出版,而且还是个删节版。
IndividualTrash502919 赞2025/7/5
> "Mein Kampf" was published 1925. yes but >By January 1933, a total of 287,000 copies of all editions had been sold. After that, circulation soared. According to historian Othmar Plöckinger, 854,127 copies were sold between January and November 17, 1933.
Meanwhile, Project 2025 is accessible online and people still won't read it.
与此同时,“2025计划”明明可以在网上直接查到,但人们还是懒得看。
Icy-Bicycle-Crab35 赞2025/7/5
She's also dead. So yeah, who cares.
而且她人都没了。所以啊,谁在乎呢。
dontcallmebettyal38 赞2025/7/6
That's a very odd perspective to have for someone in a history subreddit
在历史讨论版里持这种观点,真是够奇葩的。
Nachooolo1,505 赞2025/7/6
Blokes here going into rants without knowing jack shit about the context. She was 7 in this photo. She did not know anything about the Nazis by the simple fact that she was a close to toddler. The reason she did it was because her uncle (the man in the photo), the future Edward VIII, was an actual Nazi (which was one of the reasons he was forced to abdicate). Basically her Nazi uncle made her do the Seig Heil when she didn't know what the Hell it meant. This is not evidence of the Nazis being widly popular in Europe as some blokes here think. The same way that your ubcle being part of the Aryan Brotherhood isn't prove that Neo-Nazism is a widly held political ideology in your country. Edit: The photograph was done in 1933, 3 years before Edward VIII became the king (and 3/4 years before he abdicated), and 6 years before the start of WW2. So some of the arguments done here below ("they were at war, they should have known better") do not make sense. Also. While marrying a divorcee was te main reason he abdicated, his support of the Nazis when the British government was already opposed to Hitler was also an important reason for his abdication. Stories like the King's speech ignore this as a way to present him in a more sympathetic light. But, just like Braveheart is a horrible representation of the Wallace Rebellion, these stories do a bad job at representing Edward VIII and the controversies around him during his own era. Finally. I'm a Spanish republican (and actual republican, not what American means by it). I have no love for my country's monarchy, let alone the British one. There are enough legit reasons to hate Elizabeth II's reign to invent fake ones.
Yeah. I prefer to tell a winding story about lizard people in this scenario.
是啊。在这种情况下,我更喜欢编个关于蜥蜴人的弯弯绕故事。
slappy_joe625 赞2025/7/6
Ikr? What's this dude doing on reddit when he's obviously touching grass everyday?
可不是吗?这哥们儿明明每天都去户外呼吸新鲜空气了,怎么还有空在 Reddit 上混啊?
PinboardWizard302 赞2025/7/6
Don't forget how once she turned 18 she literally joined the army to fight against the Nazis. Even if you pretend she loved them as a child, she sure as hell didn't once she grew up.
Yep. She drove a friggin' ambulance for the Allies.
没错。她还给盟军开了好长一段时间救护车呢。
holdsp68 赞2025/7/6
And maintained it
而且还要负责维修。
[已删除]42 赞2025/7/6
I mean I grew up in the 60s and kids were doing hitler salutes with their fingers on their lip all the time. It wasn't because we approved of Nazi ideology. It was because Hitler was a figure of mockery. The problem.is that other countries don't get English culture. We take the piss a lot, and especially out of pompous twats like Hitler. The idiots who see a photo of a family larking about and make conclusive assertions that it must show the subjects are supporting Hitler just don't understand Englishness at all. It's like thinking all the people who write comments in Trump speak on Reddit are genuine MAGA supporters
我是60年代长大的,当时小孩儿老是把手指放在嘴唇上做希特勒礼。那并不是因为我们认可纳粹那一套,而是因为希特勒当时就是个被嘲笑的对象。问题在于其他国家的人根本不懂英国文化。我们很喜欢“取笑”别人,尤其是针对希特勒这种自命不凡的蠢货。那些看到一张家人打闹的照片,就言之凿凿说这是在支持希特勒的白痴,根本就没搞懂英国人的梗。这就好比觉得在 Reddit 上用特朗普那种语气评论的人全是 MAGA 的死忠粉一样可笑。
Orcrist9040 赞2025/7/6
It's not even that. It was a common salute based on the romanticized Roman Salute that was adopted by the Nazi Party, after which lead to people throughout the world, including the US, discontinuing it because of its association with Nazi Germany.
Wasn't a salute originally, it was the Oath of the Horatii. It's still used during swearing-ins in Latin America and some Arabic countries.
它最初也不是什么敬礼,而是“荷拉提兄弟宣誓”(Oath of the Horatii)。
Kooky-Ad155115 赞2025/7/6
And they are German, after all. The House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. These german royals changed their name to Windsor during WWI.
再说了,他们毕竟是德国人嘛。萨克森-科堡-哥达王朝。这一支德国王室在二战期间才把姓氏改成了温莎。
BuyIllustrious4576441 赞2025/7/5
At the time, the full horrors of the Nazi regime weren’t yet known. It was just a child’s moment, long before Nazi atrocities were understood, and likely taken out of context.
This was 1933, nothing was known yet. Hitler hasn't even begun to start the atrocities. Also at this time, this was known as the Bellamy Salute and was taught to children in USA schools en masse. Edit: USA
那会儿才1933年,啥都还没发生呢。希特勒当时的暴行甚至都还没开张。
DemiGodCat2325 赞2025/7/5
rare historical photo sub hijacked by the usual crowd again
那个冷门历史照片版块又被那帮老面孔给占领了。
FrescoItaliano58 赞2025/7/5
Yeah as opposed to the non politically motivated picture of the Wehrmacht soldiers in a motorcycle also on the sub rn where someone unironically asks “how do you know they were fascists?”
I will farm downvotes: Europe only began claiming an ideological difference from Hitler when he made it very clear he also saw them as enemies. Long before that, the West was a source of inspiration for his Reich (and vice versa); it's quite an eye-opener seeing people defending the Duke of Windsor here.
Winner winner winner. Hitler took direct inspiration from the KKK and Confederacy. Refugee Jews were turned away from many western nations before the war. Hitler's rhetoric was not a secret, most people just agreed with it. WW2 was not a "fight against ultimate evil" as we've been told so many times, so much as it was a fight between moneyed interests. Hitler was bad for business, and many countries only joined the fight when they were personally affected. "First they came" and all that.
This is the complete truth and it's an absolute shame that the modern education about the holocaust focusses almost solely on the Germans and Hitler. European countries would have not given the slightest shit if Hitler comitted the Holocaust without also invading other countries. Antisemitism was the *norm* at that time, all over Europe. It has long and deep roots dating back to several hundred years in the continent. Not to excuse anything the Nazid did - of course. But the Allies like to leave out *a lot* when teaching about the circumstances of that whole time period and the war..
Her intentions are undoubtedly as clear as the photo is
她的意图和这张照片一样,毫无疑问是清清楚楚的。
[已删除]33 赞2025/7/5
This picture was taken around the time the Eugenics movement was coming to an end. During this era, a lot of people within the United States either hated Jews or didn't have a problem with those that did.
There were much more overt Nazi sympathizers in the royal family like King Edward VIII, but obviously sympathy for the Germans started to change dramatically after the shitshow he caused
Reddit looking at history through a modern lens will always be cringe. Do better.
Reddit 用现代人的视角去审视历史,真是一如既往地让人尴尬。长点心吧。
KaminBoiBambi24 赞2025/7/5
type of shit
这种烂活儿也能发出来?真的是笑死人了。
Shade_Of_Virgil18 赞2025/7/5
The British royal family bankrolled the Nazi through British petroleum. The British Royal family were Nazis, until it became unpopular
英国皇室通过英国石油公司给纳粹送钱。英国皇室本质上就是纳粹,直到后来这玩意儿变得不招人待见了。
TK-697616 赞2025/7/5
The reason is obvious. Edward VIII, the British King at the time, was a Nazi supporter. Mind you, he was deeply unpopular with most of the country, but still. QEII was 7 years old and likely had no idea what that truly meant. Also, Hitler hadn't started publicly committing acts of violence that were seen as being uniquely bad, and more people were concerned about the Soviet Union.
Imagine the insecurity it takes to make an alternate reddit account just to post this one picture. What's wrong your other account got banned already??
到底得多没安全感才需要专门注册个小号来发这张图啊?怎么着,你大号被封了??
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ScarlyLamorna12 赞2025/7/6
Ah yes, let's hold everyone fully accountable for things they did when they were 7 years old.
啊对对对,咱们非得让一个人为她 7 岁时做的事负全责,没毛病。
dontcallmebettyal12 赞2025/7/6
This comment section is really depressing
这评论区真是让人绝望。
Silaquix12 赞2025/7/6
I see a lot of presentism in the comments. It's important to remember that back then there was no Internet or video evidence or any of that. There was also a lot of propaganda and misinformation coming out of Germany. So at the time people had no idea about the atrocities going on. Many people straight up called it a lie when reports started trickling in because it was unfathomable. Many today still do not believe it happened even with survivors and tons of physical evidence. People at the time, even in Britain and the US had many of the same bigoted views towards Jewish people, gay people, people of color, etc. Many still do. So Hitler's anti Jewish rhetoric was nothing new and was pretty popular among a lot of people in Europe. Unfortunately many still feel this way Another thing to remember was that until the war broke out and started consuming Europe, many people openly supported fascism. They felt it was a war between fascism and communism. The royal family was still reeling from the murders of their cousins in Russia and we're extremely anti Communist. Finally above all Elizabeth was a child at the time being coached by her uncle and other adults who supported anything that was the polar opposite of communism. Britain and the US did not fight Hitler for ideological reasons. It was purely about self preservation and revenge after being attacked. It wasn't until after the war when all the atrocities came to light that they started crafting the narrative that they were the good guys fighting evil.
Sure let’s judge a child for imitating and following adult orders.
行吧,咱们这就来评判一个模仿并听从大人指令的孩子。
grania179 赞2025/7/5
Guess what? Children in the US used to say the pledge of allegiance doing this exact salute. Know why we put our hand on our hearts now? You guessed it Nazi's. As others have said, this is such a nothing photo.
Stupid. This looks like a photo of them waving. Why make something like this up?
有病吧。这看着就像是在挥手。非要编这种玩意儿干嘛?
Yorbayuul818 赞2025/7/5
Taken back when pixel rationing was all the rage
这照片拍的时候,估计像素还没实现“配给制”呢。
753ty8 赞2025/7/5
In the US that was a typical flag salute before WW2. Maybe Britain too. It didn't have anything to do with Germany or Nazis. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute Symbols change.